I could really relate to O'Brien in the beginning of this chapter. When he talked about the storing up of courage, I realized that I kind of believe the same thing, that we all have this kind of ability within us that would be triggered. But then, he gets the letter, and he thinks, "I'm too good for this, and I can't do it anyways," and that's exactly how I would feel, too, even though I apparently have all of this courage stored up within me. I really do not believe that I could physically fight - or just be - in a war.
I felt the same way: we all assume that when push comes to shove, we'll stand tall and be a hero, but until such a situation arises, we really don't know. O'Brien includes that part to make us less judgmental toward some of the soldiers, as we might be tempted to look down on some of the things the soldiers did in Vietnam, like blowing up the puppy. However, we have to realize that they were under a lot more strain than we are, and they likely felt the same way we do before the war.
And how these men had to muster the strength to fight in a war that they were forced to fight in. They didn't have the motivation, the drive to fight like those soldiers in WWII did. It would make the difficult state of combat even more difficult to bear if you didn't believe in what you were fighting for or even want to be there in the first place.
I'd like to think that I have some courage stored up in me somewhere that will magically pop out and I'll be like the next Neville Longbottom or something, but I often wonder how far I'll push myself when it comes to doing something brave.
This is kind of related: O'Brien kept saying he took the coward's way out and didn't run, he went to war. But I think that, whether he admits it or not, it takes some courage to go off and face your possible death like he did. Now he didn't go off just to be brave, but I think that running wasn't the only brave option in the situation, nor was fighting the only cowardly option. Thoughts?
I can relate to O'Brien in the same way as well. A lot of people had problems when they were drafted into the Vietnam War, trying to decide if going was the right thing to do. Here is a link that talk about "Draft Dodgers", it says that approximately 22,500 people dodged the draft in the Vietnam War.
it was interesting to me how both, running away and going to war can be seen as cowardly and brave. normaly i would of thought that going in to the war was the brave thing to do but reading O'Brien's opinion made me think that it might actualy take more courage to just run away then to do your part in the war.
This is in reply to mrs. Kozak: Why didn't the spoofers show signs of resistance? I know many didn't want to participate in the war yet many would continue to raid villages and during one part of the first chapter when Sanders cut the thumb off of a 15 year old VC boy
This is in response to Hannah Beil: I definitely feel the same way about it. I experience this kind of thing almost on a daily basis; thinking you'll be brave. Usually for me it ends with a lot of fear and anxiety and the outcome kinda varies based on the situation. But I was thinking the same thing.
I could totally relate to what O'Brien was thinking. I always think that when a situation occurs, I'll have the courage to do whatever I need to do. Of course, I never actually have that courage, but its still nice to think that I'll get it someday. I know I could never fight in a war though. I can't imagine what these draftees went through
I feel that most people find their courage from a false sense of reality that is obtained through movies and tv. When faced with a real situation, we are totally unprepared so we run.
Link to an article on the difference between reality and tv. http://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/big-differences-between-tv-and-real-life/
In response to Paloma: I think you're asking why the soldiers who went to war under protest still participated fully and vigorously in the fighting. I really don't have a good answer for this except that they become immersed in it without realizing. To survive, they have to become hardened warriors so they become swept up in the war and it begins to dictate their actions.
I feel like I wouldn't be able to fight right after reading that letter, the shock of being thrown into this controversial thing, not knowing why or how...I would feel weak and drained, even though I'm a fighter when I'm feeling brave or angry.
I agree, I'd feel weak as well, although I'm not much of a fighter. But I couldn't just pretend everything would be okay, I'd be upset and probably bawling. Just imagining receiving a letter like that would be terrifying.
I also agree. Reading the letter would leave me feeling discouraged and hopeless. At no point after reading the letter would I feel eager and determined to fight, and win.
The support that Elroy provides O'Brien with shocks me considering they are complete strangers. I feel like there is an intense connection there that they haven't talked about. Does anyone else think maybe Elroy is either a Veteran or has a son who went through the same drafting struggle?
***Spoilers! This blog post contains things about the movie/book Safe Haven; if you haven't seen it yet and want to, I'd keep going :)
When I finished reading this chapter, and Elroy is gone at the end, I made a connection to Safe Haven. Do you think that Elroy could be sort of like Jo? Obviously not exactly the same, but I thought that there were some similarities between the two situations. Thoughts?
In case you need a refresh on who Jo is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_Haven_(film)
I think they are in the similar in the respect that they both provided silent courage to the people they knew to make the right decision and move on from where they were.
Less. It takes more courage to do what you're not supposed to do (in this case), and like he kept saying, he would be risking his family, friends, and reputation if he left. Even though everyone else would think he's a sissy, in reality, they're the sissies for being "blindly patriotic" and not really thinking about why they believe what they believe and do what they do. In the end, he sounded like he was more embarrassed for staying than he would have been for leaving. I know I would've been, but then again, I think my family would have been more supportive of me leaving rather than thinking I had to go to the war like his parents thought (as far as we know).
My first reaction was to say more of a coward because he would have been avoiding the war. But after reading Abby's response, I can see both sides. O'Brien would have been cowardly if he ran away from his fear of fighting in the war. At the same time, he was cowardly because he gave in to all the pressures around him--judgement from his peers, his family, the government. He did not stand up for what he believes in, which takes more courage than anything. This is just a really great question...I can't make up my mind.
Paloma, while reading this chapter I disagreed with O'brien's statement that it would be braver to go to Canada. As I read this chapter I imagined myself in his situation and I would have made a break for Canada. This is because it is an entirely passive aggressive option where you escape the problem rather than confront it.
Even though it was known that many of the soilders were drafted into a war they didn't agree with, why were they still mistreated when they returned home?
It seems like Americans took out their frustrations on the war out on the soldiers, because they were the people directly involved with it (even if they didn't want to be). A lot of people weren't very educated about the war, and just disapproved of everything related to it. It makes me sad to think that a lot of Americans disrespected people who served their country.The media also played a role.
Here is an article that talks about it: http://www.military-money-matters.com/vietnam-veterans.html#axzz2PpWGMQ2U
And Katie's article says the opposite. It must be a mixture of both: exaggeration by the media and movies coupled with some isolated experiences of veterans returning home.
I would run. Even though I don't agree with the war that wouldn't be my reason for running. I physically cannot kill and can't tolerate death. If I was in the war I would go insane and would not be able to function properly.
Even though I would be beyond terrified, I would join. It's tough since he did not support the war in any way but I wouldn't be able to leave my family, go to Canada and be on the run for the rest of my life. I would just have to trust God that he would protect me.
I would also run. I am completely against war and violence and I would never want to be part of something like that. It is not that I think I am too good for it like O'Brien thought he was: "I was too goodfor this war" (39). Since I am totally against war I would not be able to deal with all of the events that would take place.
O'brien kept saying that he was too big of a coward to run away and that he wasn't brave enough. I would think that being brave would mean facing the war and being a coward would entail running away and not the other way around. What do you think?
When O'Brien and Elroy were out on the river fishing, O'Brien was torn between fleeing to Canada and staying in his homeland. You could really feel the internal conflict he had. What would you do in that situation?
Why do you think that O'Brien said, "I was a coward. I went to the war" (58)? In our society today, going to war takes an insane amount of courage, and people are honored because of that. Why did O'Brien have a different mind set?
He viewed himself as a coward because he couldn't run away. He was so close to escaping into Canada but couldn't bring himself to do it. He had a different mindset because he didn't want to go to war. He was scared and didn't want to die. But he couldn't find the courage to run away from the draft so he gave up and went to war.
I found an odd idea in the start of this book that is carrying itself through the story. In our world men are held at a standard of bravery, and falling beneath that will earn you rediclous amounts of ridicule. In essence, men are scared to be cowards. I hope that when the time comes I will be brave enough to be a coward.
Here is a link to a website that collects draft stories of men that were in the Vietnam War. Some of the stories are really interesting, and it gives more information on the draft. It's really cool, and worth looking into.
On page 47, O'Brien said that Elroy was very keen to making cryptic sentences. He went on to give the example of seeing the owl and saying, "There's Jesus". I was confused by this comment and didn't really understand what it meant, thoughts?
On page 38, O'Brien poses lots of difficult questions to the audience. He and almost all the drafted soldiers knew little about the war and why they were fighting it. Do you think he will ever got answers to these questions (or will get them in the book)? Can we even answer them today?
I believe that a lot of information on the Vietnam War has come to light since it concluded, yet we may never get all of the answers. During a war it is hard to learn about and understand the war because you have to go looking for that information on your own, or the government is holding back information for safety. After a war is over, schools will eventually begin to teach about what happened and experts can gather information to publish for the public.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM9MNj7slPs Top Vietnam war songs with pictures from the war. This is not chapter specific I just think it shows how musicians put Vietnam in their songs to let them know they weren't alone and to remind the citizens that "hey there is a war going on".
The above link is to a picture at an anti-war rally. There is a lot of anger toward the institution that set up the war and ample oppurtunity to show your hate of the war. If O'Brien didn't approve of the war, why did't join these sorts of rallys after he got his draft card?
I think I would definitely run. Like this men... http://www.english-online.at/history/vietnam-war/vietnam-war-protest.jpg I am against war and would no want to be presured to fight for something I didn't belive in. I would probably flee to Canada instead of risking my life for a cause I did not believe in.
It is clear that Elroy knew why O'Brien had come north. Do you think that Elroy wanted O'Brien to flee into Canada or go to war? I personally felt that Elroy wanted O'Brien to flee to Canada because 1.) he gave O'Brien money that would not be necessary to go to war and 2.) he took O'Brien right to the border.
I was just thinking about O'Brien not running away. He said that he saw his whole life spilling out into the river. If anything I think this would make me want to run away more knowing that if I went to war none of that may happen. That might just be me though, what would that do for you guys?
I could really relate to O'Brien in the beginning of this chapter. When he talked about the storing up of courage, I realized that I kind of believe the same thing, that we all have this kind of ability within us that would be triggered. But then, he gets the letter, and he thinks, "I'm too good for this, and I can't do it anyways," and that's exactly how I would feel, too, even though I apparently have all of this courage stored up within me. I really do not believe that I could physically fight - or just be - in a war.
ReplyDeleteCould anyone else relate as perfectly as I could?
I could feel what O'Brien was talking about and how he felt. I could relate to some points of the chapter as well
DeleteI felt the same way: we all assume that when push comes to shove, we'll stand tall and be a hero, but until such a situation arises, we really don't know. O'Brien includes that part to make us less judgmental toward some of the soldiers, as we might be tempted to look down on some of the things the soldiers did in Vietnam, like blowing up the puppy. However, we have to realize that they were under a lot more strain than we are, and they likely felt the same way we do before the war.
DeleteAnd how these men had to muster the strength to fight in a war that they were forced to fight in. They didn't have the motivation, the drive to fight like those soldiers in WWII did. It would make the difficult state of combat even more difficult to bear if you didn't believe in what you were fighting for or even want to be there in the first place.
Delete(Beil)
DeleteI'd like to think that I have some courage stored up in me somewhere that will magically pop out and I'll be like the next Neville Longbottom or something, but I often wonder how far I'll push myself when it comes to doing something brave.
This is kind of related: O'Brien kept saying he took the coward's way out and didn't run, he went to war. But I think that, whether he admits it or not, it takes some courage to go off and face your possible death like he did. Now he didn't go off just to be brave, but I think that running wasn't the only brave option in the situation, nor was fighting the only cowardly option. Thoughts?
I can relate to O'Brien in the same way as well. A lot of people had problems when they were drafted into the Vietnam War, trying to decide if going was the right thing to do. Here is a link that talk about "Draft Dodgers", it says that approximately 22,500 people dodged the draft in the Vietnam War.
Deletehttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_men_dodged_the_Vietnam_war
it was interesting to me how both, running away and going to war can be seen as cowardly and brave. normaly i would of thought that going in to the war was the brave thing to do but reading O'Brien's opinion made me think that it might actualy take more courage to just run away then to do your part in the war.
DeleteThis is in reply to mrs. Kozak:
DeleteWhy didn't the spoofers show signs of resistance? I know many didn't want to participate in the war yet many would continue to raid villages and during one part of the first chapter when Sanders cut the thumb off of a 15 year old VC boy
This is in response to Hannah Beil:
DeleteI definitely feel the same way about it. I experience this kind of thing almost on a daily basis; thinking you'll be brave. Usually for me it ends with a lot of fear and anxiety and the outcome kinda varies based on the situation. But I was thinking the same thing.
I could totally relate to what O'Brien was thinking. I always think that when a situation occurs, I'll have the courage to do whatever I need to do. Of course, I never actually have that courage, but its still nice to think that I'll get it someday. I know I could never fight in a war though. I can't imagine what these draftees went through
DeleteI feel that most people find their courage from a false sense of reality that is obtained through movies and tv. When faced with a real situation, we are totally unprepared so we run.
DeleteLink to an article on the difference between reality and tv.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/big-differences-between-tv-and-real-life/
In response to Paloma: I think you're asking why the soldiers who went to war under protest still participated fully and vigorously in the fighting. I really don't have a good answer for this except that they become immersed in it without realizing. To survive, they have to become hardened warriors so they become swept up in the war and it begins to dictate their actions.
DeleteI feel like I wouldn't be able to fight right after reading that letter, the shock of being thrown into this controversial thing, not knowing why or how...I would feel weak and drained, even though I'm a fighter when I'm feeling brave or angry.
ReplyDeleteI agree, I'd feel weak as well, although I'm not much of a fighter. But I couldn't just pretend everything would be okay, I'd be upset and probably bawling. Just imagining receiving a letter like that would be terrifying.
DeleteI also agree. Reading the letter would leave me feeling discouraged and hopeless. At no point after reading the letter would I feel eager and determined to fight, and win.
DeleteHere's a link to draft burning, which embodies the feeling O'Brien had about running, not wanting any part of the war.
ReplyDeletehttp://depts.washington.edu/antiwar/vietnam_draft.shtml
The support that Elroy provides O'Brien with shocks me considering they are complete strangers. I feel like there is an intense connection there that they haven't talked about. Does anyone else think maybe Elroy is either a Veteran or has a son who went through the same drafting struggle?
ReplyDeleteI think this is a good guess, he treated him kind of like a son and he might have went through the same thing with his son.
DeleteI would run because if It's somthing I'm truly against I would not want to support or be a part of it in any way, shape, or form.
ReplyDelete(Beil)
ReplyDelete***Spoilers! This blog post contains things about the movie/book Safe Haven; if you haven't seen it yet and want to, I'd keep going :)
When I finished reading this chapter, and Elroy is gone at the end, I made a connection to Safe Haven. Do you think that Elroy could be sort of like Jo? Obviously not exactly the same, but I thought that there were some similarities between the two situations. Thoughts?
In case you need a refresh on who Jo is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_Haven_(film)
I think they are in the similar in the respect that they both provided silent courage to the people they knew to make the right decision and move on from where they were.
DeleteIn our opinion, Would fleeing to Canada make O'brien more or less of a coward?
ReplyDeleteLess. It takes more courage to do what you're not supposed to do (in this case), and like he kept saying, he would be risking his family, friends, and reputation if he left. Even though everyone else would think he's a sissy, in reality, they're the sissies for being "blindly patriotic" and not really thinking about why they believe what they believe and do what they do. In the end, he sounded like he was more embarrassed for staying than he would have been for leaving. I know I would've been, but then again, I think my family would have been more supportive of me leaving rather than thinking I had to go to the war like his parents thought (as far as we know).
DeleteMy first reaction was to say more of a coward because he would have been avoiding the war. But after reading Abby's response, I can see both sides. O'Brien would have been cowardly if he ran away from his fear of fighting in the war. At the same time, he was cowardly because he gave in to all the pressures around him--judgement from his peers, his family, the government. He did not stand up for what he believes in, which takes more courage than anything. This is just a really great question...I can't make up my mind.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeletePaloma, while reading this chapter I disagreed with O'brien's statement that it would be braver to go to Canada. As I read this chapter I imagined myself in his situation and I would have made a break for Canada. This is because it is an entirely passive aggressive option where you escape the problem rather than confront it.
Deletehttp://imgur.com/Z41KtOd
DeleteAnd oddly relevant, this place is called freaking Sunshine meadows. Pretty sure anyone would pick that over 'nam.
why did Elroy have such a strong connection with O'Brien the O'brien knew what the oldman was thinking without him saying a word?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theworld.org/2012/03/the-vietnam-anti-war-movement-legacy-for-todays-returning-veterans/
ReplyDeleteEven though it was known that many of the soilders were drafted into a war they didn't agree with, why were they still mistreated when they returned home?
It seems like Americans took out their frustrations on the war out on the soldiers, because they were the people directly involved with it (even if they didn't want to be). A lot of people weren't very educated about the war, and just disapproved of everything related to it. It makes me sad to think that a lot of Americans disrespected people who served their country.The media also played a role.
DeleteHere is an article that talks about it:
http://www.military-money-matters.com/vietnam-veterans.html#axzz2PpWGMQ2U
This is an interesting broadcast. It actually disputes the claims that soldiers had such encounters with anti-war protestors.
DeleteAnd Katie's article says the opposite. It must be a mixture of both: exaggeration by the media and movies coupled with some isolated experiences of veterans returning home.
DeleteI would run. Even though I don't agree with the war that wouldn't be my reason for running. I physically cannot kill and can't tolerate death. If I was in the war I would go insane and would not be able to function properly.
ReplyDeleteEven though I would be beyond terrified, I would join. It's tough since he did not support the war in any way but I wouldn't be able to leave my family, go to Canada and be on the run for the rest of my life. I would just have to trust God that he would protect me.
ReplyDeleteI would also run. I am completely against war and violence and I would never want to be part of something like that. It is not that I think I am too good for it like O'Brien thought he was: "I was too goodfor this war" (39). Since I am totally against war I would not be able to deal with all of the events that would take place.
ReplyDeleteO'brien kept saying that he was too big of a coward to run away and that he wasn't brave enough. I would think that being brave would mean facing the war and being a coward would entail running away and not the other way around. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteWhen O'Brien and Elroy were out on the river fishing, O'Brien was torn between fleeing to Canada and staying in his homeland. You could really feel the internal conflict he had. What would you do in that situation?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that O'Brien said, "I was a coward. I went to the war" (58)? In our society today, going to war takes an insane amount of courage, and people are honored because of that. Why did O'Brien have a different mind set?
ReplyDeleteHe viewed himself as a coward because he couldn't run away. He was so close to escaping into Canada but couldn't bring himself to do it.
DeleteHe had a different mindset because he didn't want to go to war. He was scared and didn't want to die. But he couldn't find the courage to run away from the draft so he gave up and went to war.
I found an odd idea in the start of this book that is carrying itself through the story. In our world men are held at a standard of bravery, and falling beneath that will earn you rediclous amounts of ridicule. In essence, men are scared to be cowards. I hope that when the time comes I will be brave enough to be a coward.
DeleteHere is a link to a website that collects draft stories of men that were in the Vietnam War. Some of the stories are really interesting, and it gives more information on the draft. It's really cool, and worth looking into.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vietnamwardraftlottery.com/phpnuke/index.php
On page 47, O'Brien said that Elroy was very keen to making cryptic sentences. He went on to give the example of seeing the owl and saying, "There's Jesus". I was confused by this comment and didn't really understand what it meant, thoughts?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that O'Brien felt that it was the right thing to do to run away to Canada instead of going off to war?
ReplyDeleteOn page 38, O'Brien poses lots of difficult questions to the audience. He and almost all the drafted soldiers knew little about the war and why they were fighting it. Do you think he will ever got answers to these questions (or will get them in the book)? Can we even answer them today?
ReplyDeleteI believe that a lot of information on the Vietnam War has come to light since it concluded, yet we may never get all of the answers. During a war it is hard to learn about and understand the war because you have to go looking for that information on your own, or the government is holding back information for safety. After a war is over, schools will eventually begin to teach about what happened and experts can gather information to publish for the public.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM9MNj7slPs
ReplyDeleteTop Vietnam war songs with pictures from the war. This is not chapter specific I just think it shows how musicians put Vietnam in their songs to let them know they weren't alone and to remind the citizens that "hey there is a war going on".
I love this music!
Deletehttp://www.english-online.at/history/vietnam-war/vietnam-war-protest.jpg
ReplyDeleteThe above link is to a picture at an anti-war rally. There is a lot of anger toward the institution that set up the war and ample oppurtunity to show your hate of the war. If O'Brien didn't approve of the war, why did't join these sorts of rallys after he got his draft card?
I think I would definitely run. Like this men... http://www.english-online.at/history/vietnam-war/vietnam-war-protest.jpg I am against war and would no want to be presured to fight for something I didn't belive in. I would probably flee to Canada instead of risking my life for a cause I did not believe in.
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that Elroy knew why O'Brien had come north. Do you think that Elroy wanted O'Brien to flee into Canada or go to war? I personally felt that Elroy wanted O'Brien to flee to Canada because 1.) he gave O'Brien money that would not be necessary to go to war and 2.) he took O'Brien right to the border.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, what do you think?
Marie, interesting link. I've never seen so many stories in one place!
ReplyDeleteI was just thinking about O'Brien not running away. He said that he saw his whole life spilling out into the river. If anything I think this would make me want to run away more knowing that if I went to war none of that may happen. That might just be me though, what would that do for you guys?
ReplyDelete