Does anyone else feel that Rat's story is false? I just can't believe that something like that would actually happen. Why would a girl who was pretty and popular decide to join the "greenie" cult within just a few weeks?
Because people can have different pieces of their personality. Being in Vietnam just brought out something in her. It's like the "stored-up courage" idea, where no one knew she had it in her until it was already out. I believe most of it is true. I believe she got there and assimilated herself. The end is a little trickier, but I can see how it would happen. It's one of those things you can't make up. Or maybe, it's one of those things where it happened in a sense - somebody got that dark, somebody changed that much - but the details had to be changed.
As for me, I believe it how it is. For the most part.
I think that she was looking for something new to experience because she had gotten so used to the daily routine with the men she was always with. As for me though, i believe that the story is true. i dont think someone could make up such an emotional/deep story like that.
I believe it is very unrealistic because the "greenies" were a very hard group to get in. The fact that she just joined and was accpted very quickly seems very unrealistic.
I think that the story is mostly true, though maybe not the whole thing. But she could have turned to the greenies because they were such an intense group, and Vietnam brought out the intensity in her; Rat does say it was like a drug to her. Also the greenies would have accepted her because they're trapped in Vietnam and suddenly this attractive smart girl wants to be involved in all they do? So of course they let her come, they haven't had contact with a female in weeks.
I think this story was meant to reveal a hidden truth within the intrinsic parts of human nature: that the appeal to violence, danger, and adventure at the cost of civility extend far deeper the shallow exterior of a "pretty and popular" girl. Even in the people we consider the most innocent, there is this savagery that we like to pretend doesn't exist, and this barrier most easily falls away during war.
I don't think it happened. Its just so crazy in so many ways. I would even venture to say that Rat is not a real person, he just showed up halfway through the book as a major character who is Brian's best friend.I don't believe he ever existed.
Yeah i agree the way i look at it is, the greenies train for years and years with intense physical and metal training. I dont picture a 17 year old girl from the states showing up and joining them
I believe the story is true. I understand how she would be totally in awe of what these men do, its totally different from Cleveland Heights, a nice safe neighborhood. She wanted to experience all these new things, then wanted more. The Greenies offered more, so she took it, she loved the feeling, but she lost her empathy for life. She learned that Vietnam was about surviving, and she did, without a care. Like the male soldiers, she needed an outlet from the gore, so like the males, she became destructive, a killer.
I think it could be possible that the story is true as well. Most people see war as a job for men, but some people don't realize that women have fought more than we know. I found an article where it talks about women who dressed like men in the Civil War. It could be possible that it actually happened.
Am i the only one here who doesn't believe an ounce of this story. It seems way to good to be true, in the military they dont just let some joe schmo people go to the front lines; even to see their boyfriend. This story seems like just another one of O'briens's tests for the reader to help them decide between fact and fiction.
I feel that this story was made up to express his truth of the emotions he feels. He is expressing the change Vietnam has had on him and his friends. The greenies change Fossie's girlfriend into something that is unknown to him, just like Vietnam has changed him into something strange and different.
My general feeling is that a girl who had been sheltered her entire life would not just jump headfirst into the blood and gore, she would get noxious, she'd panic, something like that. That's not sexism, that's how girls were expected to be at the time, it's just highly improbable that she'd enjoy an experience like that.
I believe that factually this story could have happened, but it is highly unlikely that they did. I think the point of Tim O'Brian writing this story was to show that a story could be factually sound, yet not be true to you because you do not believe it or don't want to believe it.
I feel like it is very unlikely that this story could have actually happened. I feel like the military is too strict for a young girl to get threw them and to Rat. But then again, I feel like many strange things happened during this war that would seem unlikely.
I find it very unlikely (though still possible) that this story is true. Even though the area Rat was stationed in was not under heavy security, I doubt that it would be so easy for Mary Anne to arrive there in the middle of the war. Also, I don't think the Greenies would have so readily accepted her. And most of all, the idea of the story as a whole seems very far-fetched.
However, this story does reveal the truth that war has the power to tremendously change a person. I don't believe Mary Anne was a real person, but she was a good character for O'Brien to use so that he could show the effects of war on people. Mary Anne seemed so innocent, but even she became a completely different person in Vietnam.
it is interesting to believe that a girl of only 17 would be out there on her own. but war does change people and i believe this could have actualy happened. or atleast it was a ghost story that they told.
Agreed. Mary Ann, fictional or not, symbolizes the distinction between men like Fossie who fought because they had no other choice, and those like the Green Berets and herself who accepted the fact that they would be consumed by Vietnam. The relationship illustrates how Vietnamese and American culture seem incompatible with each other. There was no comfortable mix of culture, for Mary Ann, she chose the "darkness": Vietnamese culture.
I agree with Katie that it is hard to believe a girl of 17 would join the war like that. But in reality i don't think women received enough credit for what they did in Vietnam. Here is an article that shows there was a lot more women in the war than most people thought.
I was curious about how scary the Greenies were, so I looked them up and ehow had a pretty good article. The most noteworthy things were that the article casts the Greenies in a much more professional light than Rat's story did, which kind of makes me wonder if the article is biased or Rat is just lying.
This was interesting. What reinforces Rat's story is that they perform psychological operations and that they use unconventional methods (guerrilla warfare) to achieve their goals. But, they also seem highly trained, know several languages and specialize in organizing insurgency of natives.
I do not believe this story one bit. O'Brien told the reader about Rat's lying problem at the beginning of the chapter. He is obviously a guy who likes the attention when telling stories. Don't you think that if one guy got his girlfriend in Vietnam that every other guy would do the same? Does anyone else agree ?
I agree. I mean, I doubt it was possible to fly someone's girlfriend out in the middle of the war. Rat does have a big lying problem so it only makes sense that he would lie again.. The whole thing just seems way too good to be true. And yeah, like Jacob said, all the other men would want their girlfriends there too..
Yeah this makes sense its kinda like highschool drama a lot of people like to just be the center of attention and are willing to lie or maybe stretch the truth to be that center
This essay talks about whether or not masculinity is an inherent trait of soldiers, using Mary Anne's story as one piece of proof that women can be strong, too.
Also, don't know if anyone remembered Kozak mentioning this (it was in the interview, too), but this chapter has parallels to Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. I haven't read the book yet, but I downloaded it a long time ago onto my Nook through Project Gutenberg. If anyone else is interested, here's the link where you can get it for free (multiple formats available):
In this chapter they make it clear that the soldiers longed for a woman to be around. Do you think that because of their "need" for a female presence that they didn't care if she was in danger as long as she was with them? Or do you think they would rather have women in the States where they're safe?
I think that because she was able to take care of herself they weren't really that worried about it. It didn't bother them to bring her in so when she was more than capable to take care of herself they were more than happy to let her stay.
Did anyone connect the Vietnam war to the childhood song and TV show "Puff the Magic Dragon"? Here is a link that explains the significance of both the song and what it meant to the Vietnam War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puff,_the_Magic_Dragon
Maybe initially, however, in the long run Mary Anne helped the moral of all the soldiers. The end however was not helpful for any of the soldiers. So Fosse brought something that helped the entire group and eventually hurt them.
Does anyone else feel that Rat's story is false? I just can't believe that something like that would actually happen. Why would a girl who was pretty and popular decide to join the "greenie" cult within just a few weeks?
ReplyDeleteBecause people can have different pieces of their personality. Being in Vietnam just brought out something in her. It's like the "stored-up courage" idea, where no one knew she had it in her until it was already out. I believe most of it is true. I believe she got there and assimilated herself. The end is a little trickier, but I can see how it would happen. It's one of those things you can't make up. Or maybe, it's one of those things where it happened in a sense - somebody got that dark, somebody changed that much - but the details had to be changed.
DeleteAs for me, I believe it how it is. For the most part.
I think that she was looking for something new to experience because she had gotten so used to the daily routine with the men she was always with. As for me though, i believe that the story is true. i dont think someone could make up such an emotional/deep story like that.
DeleteI believe it is very unrealistic because the "greenies" were a very hard group to get in. The fact that she just joined and was accpted very quickly seems very unrealistic.
Delete(Beil)
DeleteI think that the story is mostly true, though maybe not the whole thing. But she could have turned to the greenies because they were such an intense group, and Vietnam brought out the intensity in her; Rat does say it was like a drug to her. Also the greenies would have accepted her because they're trapped in Vietnam and suddenly this attractive smart girl wants to be involved in all they do? So of course they let her come, they haven't had contact with a female in weeks.
I think this story was meant to reveal a hidden truth within the intrinsic parts of human nature: that the appeal to violence, danger, and adventure at the cost of civility extend far deeper the shallow exterior of a "pretty and popular" girl. Even in the people we consider the most innocent, there is this savagery that we like to pretend doesn't exist, and this barrier most easily falls away during war.
DeleteI don't think it happened. Its just so crazy in so many ways. I would even venture to say that Rat is not a real person, he just showed up halfway through the book as a major character who is Brian's best friend.I don't believe he ever existed.
DeleteYeah i agree the way i look at it is, the greenies train for years and years with intense physical and metal training. I dont picture a 17 year old girl from the states showing up and joining them
DeleteI believe the story is true. I understand how she would be totally in awe of what these men do, its totally different from Cleveland Heights, a nice safe neighborhood. She wanted to experience all these new things, then wanted more. The Greenies offered more, so she took it, she loved the feeling, but she lost her empathy for life. She learned that Vietnam was about surviving, and she did, without a care. Like the male soldiers, she needed an outlet from the gore, so like the males, she became destructive, a killer.
ReplyDeleteI think it could be possible that the story is true as well. Most people see war as a job for men, but some people don't realize that women have fought more than we know. I found an article where it talks about women who dressed like men in the Civil War. It could be possible that it actually happened.
Deletehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2285841/The-women-fought-men-Rare-Civil-War-pictures-female-soldiers-dressed-males-fight.html
I've heard of this before, but I love the visual.
DeleteAm i the only one here who doesn't believe an ounce of this story. It seems way to good to be true, in the military they dont just let some joe schmo people go to the front lines; even to see their boyfriend. This story seems like just another one of O'briens's tests for the reader to help them decide between fact and fiction.
ReplyDeleteI feel that this story was made up to express his truth of the emotions he feels. He is expressing the change Vietnam has had on him and his friends. The greenies change Fossie's girlfriend into something that is unknown to him, just like Vietnam has changed him into something strange and different.
DeleteMy general feeling is that a girl who had been sheltered her entire life would not just jump headfirst into the blood and gore, she would get noxious, she'd panic, something like that. That's not sexism, that's how girls were expected to be at the time, it's just highly improbable that she'd enjoy an experience like that.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI believe that factually this story could have happened, but it is highly unlikely that they did. I think the point of Tim O'Brian writing this story was to show that a story could be factually sound, yet not be true to you because you do not believe it or don't want to believe it.
DeleteI feel like it is very unlikely that this story could have actually happened. I feel like the military is too strict for a young girl to get threw them and to Rat. But then again, I feel like many strange things happened during this war that would seem unlikely.
DeleteI find it very unlikely (though still possible) that this story is true. Even though the area Rat was stationed in was not under heavy security, I doubt that it would be so easy for Mary Anne to arrive there in the middle of the war. Also, I don't think the Greenies would have so readily accepted her. And most of all, the idea of the story as a whole seems very far-fetched.
DeleteHowever, this story does reveal the truth that war has the power to tremendously change a person. I don't believe Mary Anne was a real person, but she was a good character for O'Brien to use so that he could show the effects of war on people. Mary Anne seemed so innocent, but even she became a completely different person in Vietnam.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/29782225
ReplyDeletethis is a picture of the village by the Song Tra Bong, just look at the mountains behind it and imagine a Cleveland girl wandering around those.
it is interesting to believe that a girl of only 17 would be out there on her own. but war does change people and i believe this could have actualy happened. or atleast it was a ghost story that they told.
DeleteAgreed. Mary Ann, fictional or not, symbolizes the distinction between men like Fossie who fought because they had no other choice, and those like the Green Berets and herself who accepted the fact that they would be consumed by Vietnam. The relationship illustrates how Vietnamese and American culture seem incompatible with each other. There was no comfortable mix of culture, for Mary Ann, she chose the "darkness": Vietnamese culture.
DeleteI agree with Katie that it is hard to believe a girl of 17 would join the war like that. But in reality i don't think women received enough credit for what they did in Vietnam. Here is an article that shows there was a lot more women in the war than most people thought.
Deletehttp://www.deanza.edu/faculty/swensson/bestresearch_womensoldiers.html
http://www.ehow.com/about_4579101_green-berets.html
ReplyDeleteI was curious about how scary the Greenies were, so I looked them up and ehow had a pretty good article. The most noteworthy things were that the article casts the Greenies in a much more professional light than Rat's story did, which kind of makes me wonder if the article is biased or Rat is just lying.
This was interesting. What reinforces Rat's story is that they perform psychological operations and that they use unconventional methods (guerrilla warfare) to achieve their goals. But, they also seem highly trained, know several languages and specialize in organizing insurgency of natives.
DeleteI do not believe this story one bit. O'Brien told the reader about Rat's lying problem at the beginning of the chapter. He is obviously a guy who likes the attention when telling stories. Don't you think that if one guy got his girlfriend in Vietnam that every other guy would do the same? Does anyone else agree ?
ReplyDeleteI agree. I mean, I doubt it was possible to fly someone's girlfriend out in the middle of the war. Rat does have a big lying problem so it only makes sense that he would lie again.. The whole thing just seems way too good to be true. And yeah, like Jacob said, all the other men would want their girlfriends there too..
DeleteYeah this makes sense its kinda like highschool drama a lot of people like to just be the center of attention and are willing to lie or maybe stretch the truth to be that center
DeleteThis essay talks about whether or not masculinity is an inherent trait of soldiers, using Mary Anne's story as one piece of proof that women can be strong, too.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.academia.edu/1471121/_Resisting_Remasculinization_Tim_OBriens_Sweetheart_of_the_Song_Tra_Bong._
Also, don't know if anyone remembered Kozak mentioning this (it was in the interview, too), but this chapter has parallels to Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. I haven't read the book yet, but I downloaded it a long time ago onto my Nook through Project Gutenberg. If anyone else is interested, here's the link where you can get it for free (multiple formats available):
http://gutenberg.org/ebooks/526
In this chapter they make it clear that the soldiers longed for a woman to be around. Do you think that because of their "need" for a female presence that they didn't care if she was in danger as long as she was with them? Or do you think they would rather have women in the States where they're safe?
ReplyDeleteI think that because she was able to take care of herself they weren't really that worried about it. It didn't bother them to bring her in so when she was more than capable to take care of herself they were more than happy to let her stay.
DeleteDid anyone connect the Vietnam war to the childhood song and TV show "Puff the Magic Dragon"? Here is a link that explains the significance of both the song and what it meant to the Vietnam War.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puff,_the_Magic_Dragon
Do you think it was selfish of Fossie to bring his girlfriend over to Vietnam? Why?
ReplyDeleteMaybe initially, however, in the long run Mary Anne helped the moral of all the soldiers. The end however was not helpful for any of the soldiers. So Fosse brought something that helped the entire group and eventually hurt them.
Delete