The way O'Brien described the man, a math lover, married, felt like it was his stress at his first personal kill, his guilt made him think of all the possibilities of how he ruined his mans life.
The way I thought about it was that he stared at the body for so long because he felt he killed a man just like him and that that man could have been him. In the chapter, O'Brien described the man as a man "who [was] determined to continue his education" (122). Also O'Brien talked about how the man "had not stomach for violence ...[but] in the presence of his father and uncle, he pretended to look forward to doing his patriotic patriotic duty"(121). It is kind of like O'Brien's situation because he went to war because he didn't want to have the same of being thought of as a coward by his family. Just like the man he killed "he was afraid of disgracing himself"(121)
it seems to me O'Brain couldn't handle killing the poor kid. he created a back story to make himself feel even more terrible about the great tragety he created. O'Brain's iner self wantesd him to feel the pain this mans wife and family would feel and caused himself to stare at the body so he will have it engraved in his head forever.
The way O'Brien kept repeating the same lines made me feel that he was in a lot of shock, and that he feels major guilt. I also felt like he was having internal conflict with himself, like he was trying to put himself in the dead soldier's shoes.
Killing him made him realize that the people he's fighting and killing have lives. It's a tough thing to really sit and think, "Hey, other people have lives and thoughts and dreams and don't just exist to be background noise in my life." Yes, he could relate to his supposed story for the man, but I think his real issue was the fact that things exist outside of himself. This person had a life, a future. And now it's gone.
I think that this is O'brien stressing how much he felt in his head over the death of this person. He doesnt know if the man he killed really was the things he claimed (a math lover, married) but in his mind that is the person he killed
It seems like O'Brien was trying to focus on anything but the death of this guy, so he picked physical aspects of the scene to distract himself with. He wanted to distance himself from his emotions, especially of guilt.
Traumatic experiences have a way of making one especially aware of the surrounding circumstances, and things that would normally be trivial become etched into the memory of the beholder. He mentions all these insignificant details because he remembers every one of them, they've become part of the story as much as the death itself.
I agree with all the replies made, but I also think that it was to show the innocence that the young man had, and how he wasn't a nasty killing machine who deserved to die; he was just a kid who loved math and didn't want to be a part of the war. I think the butterfly and flowers symbolize the purity in him.
I think that he was just trying to distract himself from thinking about how he killed of the guy, although he found himself thinking about him constantly. He tried to hide his emotions but all the other guys saw right through him and could tell that he was upset.
I think that this moment for him was so traumatizing that he was trying to find any good out of the situation. He focused himself on the flower and the butterfly to distract himself from what was truly going on.
I feel like it was meant to show the irony in this situation, but also in life in general. It was meant to reveal a deeper truth about life - they way it is almost beautiful when he described the death of this man. The happy future, the sunshine, the flowers, the comfort of a friend, the butterfly; it was all probably too disgustingly peaceful for Tim. And that is the way reality is: the good keeps going on even when we don't.
I think it goes back to when he talked about "The only time you really feel alive is when you're almost dead," because when you see the true horror of war you appreciate the little beautiful things that are all around.
I think O'brien does this to see the beauty in the horror. He hates what he had done and cannot not staring at the man's body but still manages to find the beauty in the situation and maybe the man was in a better place now that he wasn't in a war that O'brien guessed he didn't want to be in.
Why do you think O'Brien chose to repeat over and over again certain details of the dead man that he had killed, especially the star shaped hole in his eye?
I think that he was just so completely horrified that he actually killed someone that he couldn't stop fixating on the details. He couldn't believe that it had happened, and focusing on the details of the man convinced him that he had actually done it.
I agree with Marie. In his mind, he was sort of emphasizing the details of the body, making himself feel even worse. He also refused to talk to Kiowa about it, so he only had himself to "talk" it over with.
That image was surely one that O'Brien played over and over again in his head. I think the repetition demonstrated how every tiny detail would be stuck there forever. Lots of us can probably relate to the feeling...we have a tendency to replay moments that we wish had never happened.
I think in writing this book after his experiences he remembers these details and in telling his story he needs to make the reader feel how he has for all these years. Always remembering all the details.
Here's a link to an article about living with guilt and shame from the combat veteran's perspective. Most men felt the guilt and shame of killing other people years after the war was over, even if it was to save their own lives.
Why do you think Kiowa kept telling O'Brien to talk and to stop staring at the man he killed? Is he trying to help O'Brien get over the fact that he killed someone?
Of course he is. But he doesn't really know what to do, he just knows that he can't let his friend sit there and wallow in his shame and disgust at himslef.
At this point, he hasn't lost his humanity yet. I don't know if he will in the remaining chapters, but at this point, it is very evident that he can't just move on from it like everyone else. It might be bizarre to some that he has watched his peers die - even his friends - and not been (as far as we know) horribly affected because of it, but this random person's death throws him into a state of shock. I think it's because the blood was on his hands this time.
I think this chapter shows O'Brien is still human. He still knows right from wrong. The war has taken a lot from him, but it has left his conscience intact.
I think he was trying to help him move on from killing him. He wanted to reassure him that what he did was okay and he shouldn't feel guilt since they were in a war and that man was their enemy.
I think that if O'Brien had listened to Kiowa he wouldn't be so traumatized. The image would have been blurred in his memory and perhaps not so bold and repeating. SO Kiowa was trying to help but he couldn't. It is a war, kill or be killed.
Why don't you think O'brien responds to the question Kiowa asked? Whyy couldn't he come up with an answer to if he would rather trade places with the man he killed.
I think that at this point in the book, O'Brien was still such a novice to taking another person's life that he couldn't help but feel empathy. The way he imagined the man's life made it seem as though O'Brien thought of himself and the man he killed as equals, even though they were enemies. So, the reason I believe O'Brien couldn't answer is because he thought of that man as his equal, and thought his life was just as valuable as the dead man's was.
(Beil) I agree with Abby. The fact that O'Brien can't stop fixating on the story of the guy, how human he was and the guilt O'Brien felt, showed that O'Brien hadn't lost his humanity and compassion yet. And maybe it shows, too, that O'Brien might be able to keep more compassion than other soldiers do after the war.
This article is about the Vietcong and how their army was set up and operated. I think that is interesting that they were also pressured into joining the military. I had originally thought it was to defend their home but some of them were pressured into it. I don't know if this really changed my view on them but what do you guys think?
The way O'Brien described the man, a math lover, married, felt like it was his stress at his first personal kill, his guilt made him think of all the possibilities of how he ruined his mans life.
ReplyDeleteThe way I thought about it was that he stared at the body for so long because he felt he killed a man just like him and that that man could have been him.
DeleteIn the chapter, O'Brien described the man as a man "who [was] determined to continue his education" (122). Also O'Brien talked about how the man "had not stomach for violence ...[but] in the presence of his father and uncle, he pretended to look forward to doing his patriotic patriotic duty"(121). It is kind of like O'Brien's situation because he went to war because he didn't want to have the same of being thought of as a coward by his family. Just like the man he killed "he was afraid of disgracing himself"(121)
it seems to me O'Brain couldn't handle killing the poor kid. he created a back story to make himself feel even more terrible about the great tragety he created. O'Brain's iner self wantesd him to feel the pain this mans wife and family would feel and caused himself to stare at the body so he will have it engraved in his head forever.
DeleteThe way O'Brien kept repeating the same lines made me feel that he was in a lot of shock, and that he feels major guilt. I also felt like he was having internal conflict with himself, like he was trying to put himself in the dead soldier's shoes.
DeleteKilling him made him realize that the people he's fighting and killing have lives. It's a tough thing to really sit and think, "Hey, other people have lives and thoughts and dreams and don't just exist to be background noise in my life." Yes, he could relate to his supposed story for the man, but I think his real issue was the fact that things exist outside of himself. This person had a life, a future. And now it's gone.
DeleteI think that this is O'brien stressing how much he felt in his head over the death of this person. He doesnt know if the man he killed really was the things he claimed (a math lover, married) but in his mind that is the person he killed
DeleteWhy do you think O'Brien talks about the butterfly and the pretty little blue flowers in the midst of the horrifying, gruesome tragedy of death?
ReplyDeleteIt seems like O'Brien was trying to focus on anything but the death of this guy, so he picked physical aspects of the scene to distract himself with. He wanted to distance himself from his emotions, especially of guilt.
DeleteTraumatic experiences have a way of making one especially aware of the surrounding circumstances, and things that would normally be trivial become etched into the memory of the beholder. He mentions all these insignificant details because he remembers every one of them, they've become part of the story as much as the death itself.
DeleteI agree with all the replies made, but I also think that it was to show the innocence that the young man had, and how he wasn't a nasty killing machine who deserved to die; he was just a kid who loved math and didn't want to be a part of the war. I think the butterfly and flowers symbolize the purity in him.
DeleteI think that he was just trying to distract himself from thinking about how he killed of the guy, although he found himself thinking about him constantly. He tried to hide his emotions but all the other guys saw right through him and could tell that he was upset.
DeleteI think that this moment for him was so traumatizing that he was trying to find any good out of the situation. He focused himself on the flower and the butterfly to distract himself from what was truly going on.
DeleteI feel like it was meant to show the irony in this situation, but also in life in general. It was meant to reveal a deeper truth about life - they way it is almost beautiful when he described the death of this man. The happy future, the sunshine, the flowers, the comfort of a friend, the butterfly; it was all probably too disgustingly peaceful for Tim. And that is the way reality is: the good keeps going on even when we don't.
DeleteI think it goes back to when he talked about "The only time you really feel alive is when you're almost dead," because when you see the true horror of war you appreciate the little beautiful things that are all around.
DeleteI think O'brien does this to see the beauty in the horror. He hates what he had done and cannot not staring at the man's body but still manages to find the beauty in the situation and maybe the man was in a better place now that he wasn't in a war that O'brien guessed he didn't want to be in.
DeleteWhy do you think O'Brien chose to repeat over and over again certain details of the dead man that he had killed, especially the star shaped hole in his eye?
ReplyDeleteI think that he was just so completely horrified that he actually killed someone that he couldn't stop fixating on the details. He couldn't believe that it had happened, and focusing on the details of the man convinced him that he had actually done it.
DeleteI agree with Marie. In his mind, he was sort of emphasizing the details of the body, making himself feel even worse. He also refused to talk to Kiowa about it, so he only had himself to "talk" it over with.
DeleteThat image was surely one that O'Brien played over and over again in his head. I think the repetition demonstrated how every tiny detail would be stuck there forever. Lots of us can probably relate to the feeling...we have a tendency to replay moments that we wish had never happened.
DeleteHe keep seeing the image in his head, even to this day. It was just one of those things that is seared into your mind and you can never forget it.
DeleteI think in writing this book after his experiences he remembers these details and in telling his story he needs to make the reader feel how he has for all these years. Always remembering all the details.
DeleteHere's a link to an article about living with guilt and shame from the combat veteran's perspective. Most men felt the guilt and shame of killing other people years after the war was over, even if it was to save their own lives.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vietnow.com/pagesptsd/ptsdguiltandshame.htm
Why do you think Kiowa kept telling O'Brien to talk and to stop staring at the man he killed? Is he trying to help O'Brien get over the fact that he killed someone?
ReplyDeleteOf course he is. But he doesn't really know what to do, he just knows that he can't let his friend sit there and wallow in his shame and disgust at himslef.
DeleteAt this point, he hasn't lost his humanity yet. I don't know if he will in the remaining chapters, but at this point, it is very evident that he can't just move on from it like everyone else. It might be bizarre to some that he has watched his peers die - even his friends - and not been (as far as we know) horribly affected because of it, but this random person's death throws him into a state of shock. I think it's because the blood was on his hands this time.
ReplyDeleteI think this chapter shows O'Brien is still human. He still knows right from wrong. The war has taken a lot from him, but it has left his conscience intact.
I think he was trying to help him move on from killing him. He wanted to reassure him that what he did was okay and he shouldn't feel guilt since they were in a war and that man was their enemy.
ReplyDeleteI think that if O'Brien had listened to Kiowa he wouldn't be so traumatized. The image would have been blurred in his memory and perhaps not so bold and repeating.
DeleteSO Kiowa was trying to help but he couldn't. It is a war, kill or be killed.
Why don't you think O'brien responds to the question Kiowa asked? Whyy couldn't he come up with an answer to if he would rather trade places with the man he killed.
ReplyDeleteI think that at this point in the book, O'Brien was still such a novice to taking another person's life that he couldn't help but feel empathy. The way he imagined the man's life made it seem as though O'Brien thought of himself and the man he killed as equals, even though they were enemies. So, the reason I believe O'Brien couldn't answer is because he thought of that man as his equal, and thought his life was just as valuable as the dead man's was.
Delete(Beil)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Abby. The fact that O'Brien can't stop fixating on the story of the guy, how human he was and the guilt O'Brien felt, showed that O'Brien hadn't lost his humanity and compassion yet. And maybe it shows, too, that O'Brien might be able to keep more compassion than other soldiers do after the war.
http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/guerrilla/
ReplyDeleteThis article is about the Vietcong and how their army was set up and operated. I think that is interesting that they were also pressured into joining the military. I had originally thought it was to defend their home but some of them were pressured into it. I don't know if this really changed my view on them but what do you guys think?